It seems like your "backsliding" came from a reading science stuff. Mine was that I was a weird kid who was super into politics and the rise of Christian Republican Nationalism really made me question why people at my church had disdain for people needing help. That, and the Baptist Student Minister in college telling me I couldn't be …
It seems like your "backsliding" came from a reading science stuff. Mine was that I was a weird kid who was super into politics and the rise of Christian Republican Nationalism really made me question why people at my church had disdain for people needing help. That, and the Baptist Student Minister in college telling me I couldn't be a Christian and vote for John Kerry exacerbated my enjoying my Sundays sleeping in.
Oh yeah. In high school, we became the little Mullins Ragamuffins with a hundred questions about why our church was spending money on this or that and coming SO CLOSE to openly telling people to vote Republican .... when there were homeless people in our town
my pastor actually did tell us to vote republican. we had to have a man of god (bush jr.) in the office to keep the democrats from turning our country to sin. also told us that while the israelites were the original chosen people, america was the new chosen people. took a long time for me to shake that upbringing.
Oh this is one I am struggling hard to sort out. I don’t have kids yet, but there’s lots of positives that can come from bringing your family to church - but I am the “veteran” churchgoer in my relationship and feel some obligation to bring our eventual hypothetical children to services. But with how unsteady my own view of organized religion is, I don’t know if I could do so in a fashion that didn’t clearly hold everything at arms length? And you can’t really have a discussion with a six year old about the nuances of organized religion vs personal beliefs, and what practicing can look like…
I’ve got some time to figure it out. But it sits pretty uneasily on my shoulders.
We've never tried to steer our kid one way or the other. I tell her funny Bible stories and have given her the gist of the Gospel (treat the last as if they're first), but I'm quite opposed to her regularly attending just about any church until she makes it through at least most of her teenage years. At the same time, we'd love for her to have that extracurricular friend network in high school, whether from sports, a church we don't know about yet, etc
If a church teaches any sort of tangible Hell, my kid ain't going. I'll overcorrect my ass off to avoid any chance of traumatizing her with that bullshit. Also really wary of youth group purity culture, obviously. Same goes for a church that isn't so LGBTQ affirming that it'd be willing to hire a lesbian preacher, because putting "we welcome everybody" on the website doesn't cut it. Etc etc. So that stuff trims the list of potential churches quite a bit!
To me, the risks have outweighed the benefits she can't get anywhere else (basically: certain friendships). Emily doesn't really share my internal stance, and views it simply as our kid's choice, but we've ended up practically agreeing
Thanks both of y'all for sharing! Love this convo (it could make a great bonus-type episode for VBS someday).
he reasons
Sean, this skepticism of organized religion and my own questions about certain Bible stories is certainly part of my own reservations. My twins went to a religious preschool until this year (now they're in Kindergarten...ka ching!) and I will say it was hard to hold my own tongue for some of the Bible stories. Kind of related to what Jason and some others I have listened to (Drew Morgan from WellRed Comedy) it's kind of a gruesome thing to tell a 5 year-old that a man named Jesus was brutally murdered and hung on a cross for them lying to me about whether or not they've already had a snack.
My wife and I were both big church attenders growing up and her parents are still regular attenders. (Side note: I shared this post with my wife and she is currently adding her own voice to the comments thread lol. My parents fell off of going to church for some of the same reasons in the mid-aught GWB worship thing (we had a legitimately great pastor at my home church that got death/bomb threats in his mailbox for removing the American flag from the Sanctuary) and that was one of the final nails in the coffin (bad metaphor with nails?? lol). So that has made it somewhat easier to not go anymore although my wife's parents are not pushy but definitely would rather us go.
As for what you're saying Jason, this is ultimately where we are currently. I think I am more wanting them to go to church for the socializing, some basic life lessons from the Gospels, and appreciating some of the same shared cultural references stuff in the South. Like y'all, the costs of the Hell angle, the purity culture, and the White health/wealth angle really turn me off and like you said the costs outweigh those benefits.
I have said it here, but I have always been fairly politically-conscious and I can't bring myself to go to a church with a large majority voting for President Trump or Governor DeSantis (I'm in FL). I would be more inclined if many did not vote for their purposes, but outrightly supporting that just makes my constant eye-rolling happen.
That may be wrong on my part, I mean y'all may remember being told growing up that Church can't always be about you and what you want, but I feel that has really only gone one way and can cover-up certain theologically abusive behaviors (like purity culture or Republican Jesus type stuff).
Honestly, I would love my kids to be exposed to the types of conversations on VBS and in this thread, but like you said, Jason, that limits the number of places very significantly. I guess I need to be a more regular attender on the Discord/Patreon and not be a back-row Patreon lol
One thing I have been lucky with here is to have running dialogues with friends who are at different stages in their faith. Some have fully deconstructed and rebuilt, some (like my brother) are processing and creating podcasts about God and Bible stories and humor, and some have been able to to disassociate the problems of the church from their individual faith. And I butt heads with all of those people as we go over where we’re at, how to wrestle with doubt and faithlessness, how to heal and grow as adults, and how to simply come to terms with where we are and who we were.
I don’t know if those will bring me to the answers I seek. But I hope that my kids can see me asking them and understand why, in time.
It seems like your "backsliding" came from a reading science stuff. Mine was that I was a weird kid who was super into politics and the rise of Christian Republican Nationalism really made me question why people at my church had disdain for people needing help. That, and the Baptist Student Minister in college telling me I couldn't be a Christian and vote for John Kerry exacerbated my enjoying my Sundays sleeping in.
Oh yeah. In high school, we became the little Mullins Ragamuffins with a hundred questions about why our church was spending money on this or that and coming SO CLOSE to openly telling people to vote Republican .... when there were homeless people in our town
my pastor actually did tell us to vote republican. we had to have a man of god (bush jr.) in the office to keep the democrats from turning our country to sin. also told us that while the israelites were the original chosen people, america was the new chosen people. took a long time for me to shake that upbringing.
Which now as a parent of young kids it’s hard also to not feel some
sort of negative feelings about not taking them to church (which raises a lot of other questions).
Oh this is one I am struggling hard to sort out. I don’t have kids yet, but there’s lots of positives that can come from bringing your family to church - but I am the “veteran” churchgoer in my relationship and feel some obligation to bring our eventual hypothetical children to services. But with how unsteady my own view of organized religion is, I don’t know if I could do so in a fashion that didn’t clearly hold everything at arms length? And you can’t really have a discussion with a six year old about the nuances of organized religion vs personal beliefs, and what practicing can look like…
I’ve got some time to figure it out. But it sits pretty uneasily on my shoulders.
Just my personal pov here ...
We've never tried to steer our kid one way or the other. I tell her funny Bible stories and have given her the gist of the Gospel (treat the last as if they're first), but I'm quite opposed to her regularly attending just about any church until she makes it through at least most of her teenage years. At the same time, we'd love for her to have that extracurricular friend network in high school, whether from sports, a church we don't know about yet, etc
If a church teaches any sort of tangible Hell, my kid ain't going. I'll overcorrect my ass off to avoid any chance of traumatizing her with that bullshit. Also really wary of youth group purity culture, obviously. Same goes for a church that isn't so LGBTQ affirming that it'd be willing to hire a lesbian preacher, because putting "we welcome everybody" on the website doesn't cut it. Etc etc. So that stuff trims the list of potential churches quite a bit!
To me, the risks have outweighed the benefits she can't get anywhere else (basically: certain friendships). Emily doesn't really share my internal stance, and views it simply as our kid's choice, but we've ended up practically agreeing
Thanks both of y'all for sharing! Love this convo (it could make a great bonus-type episode for VBS someday).
he reasons
Sean, this skepticism of organized religion and my own questions about certain Bible stories is certainly part of my own reservations. My twins went to a religious preschool until this year (now they're in Kindergarten...ka ching!) and I will say it was hard to hold my own tongue for some of the Bible stories. Kind of related to what Jason and some others I have listened to (Drew Morgan from WellRed Comedy) it's kind of a gruesome thing to tell a 5 year-old that a man named Jesus was brutally murdered and hung on a cross for them lying to me about whether or not they've already had a snack.
My wife and I were both big church attenders growing up and her parents are still regular attenders. (Side note: I shared this post with my wife and she is currently adding her own voice to the comments thread lol. My parents fell off of going to church for some of the same reasons in the mid-aught GWB worship thing (we had a legitimately great pastor at my home church that got death/bomb threats in his mailbox for removing the American flag from the Sanctuary) and that was one of the final nails in the coffin (bad metaphor with nails?? lol). So that has made it somewhat easier to not go anymore although my wife's parents are not pushy but definitely would rather us go.
As for what you're saying Jason, this is ultimately where we are currently. I think I am more wanting them to go to church for the socializing, some basic life lessons from the Gospels, and appreciating some of the same shared cultural references stuff in the South. Like y'all, the costs of the Hell angle, the purity culture, and the White health/wealth angle really turn me off and like you said the costs outweigh those benefits.
I have said it here, but I have always been fairly politically-conscious and I can't bring myself to go to a church with a large majority voting for President Trump or Governor DeSantis (I'm in FL). I would be more inclined if many did not vote for their purposes, but outrightly supporting that just makes my constant eye-rolling happen.
That may be wrong on my part, I mean y'all may remember being told growing up that Church can't always be about you and what you want, but I feel that has really only gone one way and can cover-up certain theologically abusive behaviors (like purity culture or Republican Jesus type stuff).
Honestly, I would love my kids to be exposed to the types of conversations on VBS and in this thread, but like you said, Jason, that limits the number of places very significantly. I guess I need to be a more regular attender on the Discord/Patreon and not be a back-row Patreon lol
One thing I have been lucky with here is to have running dialogues with friends who are at different stages in their faith. Some have fully deconstructed and rebuilt, some (like my brother) are processing and creating podcasts about God and Bible stories and humor, and some have been able to to disassociate the problems of the church from their individual faith. And I butt heads with all of those people as we go over where we’re at, how to wrestle with doubt and faithlessness, how to heal and grow as adults, and how to simply come to terms with where we are and who we were.
I don’t know if those will bring me to the answers I seek. But I hope that my kids can see me asking them and understand why, in time.
Amen on all of that
Yea buddy, still shaking it…